Episode 2: Your Image is Worth a Thousand Words: Branding vs. Marketing

Marketing & Branding are critical to the success of any business, but how do they differ? Is one more important than the other? Host Peter Reynolds and marketing consultant Damon Adachi discuss the principals of marketing and what small business owners should consider when developing their marketing and brand strategy. 

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• 10:41 (Cont.) Episode 2: Your Image is Worth a Thousand Words: Branding vs. Marketing
• 10:41 (Cont.) Episode 2: Your Image is Worth a Thousand Words: Branding vs. Marketing

Transcript

Peter Reynolds  0:00  
Hey everyone, I'm Peter Reynolds. And this is Pros and Conversations. Pros and Conversations is a podcast where we talk to interesting people about what they do and what inspired them to become business leaders and entrepreneurs. With me today is Damon Adachi, and he is going to be joining us for the next several episodes, where we talk about the tools of business, and some of the things that can make and help you be successful. Hi, David. 

Damon Adachi  0:35  
Hi, how are you? 

Peter Reynolds  0:37  
I'm, well, I'm well,

Damon Adachi  0:38  
I will try to be an interesting guest. But I will, I can only do so much. So cut me some slack.

Peter Reynolds  0:44  
We set the bar very high here. And I cannot make any guarantees there. Our audience is very discerning. 

Damon Adachi  0:51  
Okay. 

Peter Reynolds  0:53  
So Damon, in our introductory episode, we sort of laid out what the next few episodes were going to be. And we talked about sort of the pillars, you know, of small business. Can you talk a little bit about that, and what you're going to be talking about today?

Damon Adachi  1:08  
Okay, real quick recap. We talked about those five pillars being your sales process, your marketing process, your financial status, your operations as a business and the people that make up the company. So lots of information that goes into each one of those buckets. But today, I'm going to be focusing on marketing specifically. And even more specifically about your brand. 

Peter Reynolds  1:32  
Great.

Well, everyone hates a big preamble. So let's get straight into it. If you're good with that. 

Damon Adachi  1:38  
Absolutely.

I became a brand consultant by trade because I'm, I'm just fascinated with the psychology behind your brand, and the creativity that goes into it. And I think it is the one thing that new businesses neglect the most. And you know, they think about what do we need for starting capital? And who's going to do what and how do I get business cards, and things like that, or you know, get a new website up. But the attention that is required to really crystallize your brand into the tool that it needs to be to grow, your business often gets overlooked. So it's an interesting process. We've all done it as business owners, and even the biggest corporations are reinventing and reimagining their brands on a regular basis to stay current and focused. So it's quite an interesting landscape.

Peter Reynolds  2:30  
Well, maybe you could just start by by the simplest question of all, or maybe the most complex, you know, what is a brand? What is branding?

Damon Adachi  2:39  
Absolutely. So, imagine that you have your business as this empty cardboard box. And inside that business, you're putting in your product, and your services, and your guarantees, and your warranties, and your customer service. And all that together becomes a customer experience. That's what you're selling. On the other side of the pond is the customer. And imagine they've got their wallet with cash in it, but you want to fund your business. But also they've got these cards in their little slots for like credit cards, for things like loyalty, and testimony and engagement. So that's what you want from them is engagement, more than their money, you want a relationship with them in exchange for an excellent customer experience. Well, as entrepreneurs, we know how hard it is to be personally selling your business constantly and being out there and shaking hands and kissing babies and always in the forefront. But if you're not doing that, then it's really hard to develop new business. So your brand to answer the question briefly, is that kind of broadcast tower that stands between you and your client, and constantly sends out those good vibes and talks about the great value in the great customer experience that you're going to provide. So that people even just driving by the highway and seeing a billboard, start to get that sense and start to feel like that's some seems like something I'd like to spend my money on or be invested in. So a brand is sort of your agent in representing you when you're not there face to face, and your broker in facilitating a sale until you're able to actually shake hands and close a deal. So it's hugely important for any small business because without it your name or a logo or a look and doesn't say enough about how you differentiate from the multitudes of competitors that you have in any industry. Is that tiny enough for you?

Peter Reynolds  4:27  
No, no, absolutely. And I've heard it said You know, this idea that brand being your, your identity and what people can expect. And there was a quote, I heard that talked about, if Nike, opened up a hotel, we would have a very good idea of what that hotel what to expect from that hotel. If Nike opened it up. There's going to be sports memorabilia on the wall, you know, it's going to be hip, it's going to be youth oriented. But if you look at sort of Marriott, if Marriott created a running shoe, I don't know if we have any idea what that running shoe would be. Because

Damon Adachi  5:07  
Wow, that's interesting. And it's funny when you say that when you say we can expect what we would get from a Nike hotel, you're describing the decor. And in my mind, I'm, I'm expecting an experience of quality of innovation. Right? These are the things it's the same way Apple has branded themselves. It's not about product. And that's what you're getting at there. Marriott is about product. Whereas Nike is has bridged so many product categories within the industry of sports and fitness, that now their swoosh represents values, not products. And that's the pinnacle of great branding right there.

Peter Reynolds  5:46  
Yeah, no, absolutely. And I think if we can sort of aspire to that, because it's a question of...Are you selling an experience? You know, the, are you selling a commodity? What is it that you're trying to get across to your customer?

Damon Adachi  6:01  
Well, let me ask you something. What was the last big spend you made? You don't have to divulge that it was, you know, a $10,000, barbecue or anything. But in your mind, when you think of the last big spend? Did you buy on price? No

Peter Reynolds  6:15  
No, as soon as you said, Because I bought an Apple laptop, that was my last, you know, big spend. And all a lot of most logic would say, you know that a PC is going to be cheaper, it's going to do everything that I want it to do. But I have grown to trust the Mac brand, I probably started when to be honest with you, when I was younger, the sexiness of it, you know, I wanted to be an Apple guy. I like the idea of that, particularly in the video industry. It's it's a big thing. But then as I started to use it, I really began to trust the brand and trust the service. Right? And so yeah, price was not a consideration. You're absolutely right,

Damon Adachi  7:04  
Because you're buying on customer experience. And that's 95% of our decisions. You know, like, honestly, you can buy a 99 cent bag of chips, and you're gonna just regret not spending the extra dollar because those are terrible chips. And if you can't really even enjoy the chips, and you've thrown $1 away, right? So I mean, right down to the smallest spend, you still buy on the expectation of the  customer experience based on the brand. So it's, if you're not developing that as a small business, then you're leaving out a key ingredient for your success. You know, a lot of people say, Well, I like purple Swan, my logo to be purple. Great, how does that translate into any engagement or value statement to your market, you know, really, you have to do a whole brand development exercise of identifying your key values that you offer, features and benefits, and then translating that into a statement, a value statement, and then trying to formulate a visual representation of that statement. Like that's a multi step, very involved process, rather than going on to Fiverr and saying, Hey, I need a logo from my mechanic shop, and getting, you know, a picture of a wrench and a wheel done.

Peter Reynolds  8:17  
And I would think that if you because there's a difference between brand and logo, there's the you know, and I think people do get that when they think of their branding, almost like because the word brand, you think of cattle being branded, you know, the logo of the ranch that they belong to. So this idea of, if I can just come up with that swoosh, my business is going to take off,

Damon Adachi  8:44  
Right. And it's not a graphic element that makes that happen, right? It's the whole process behind it. So when I deliver seminars about brand, I always ask my audience, when you hear the word brand, what are some words that come to mind, and you hear things like slogan, you hear things like logo, identity, you hear things like color scheme, and there's a lot going there. In reality, your brand has two sides to it, a visual component, and a message component, the look and the feel, you know, the words and the images. So even things like your podcast is part of your brand, it contributes to your brand, your radio ads have no visual component whatsoever, but they help spread your message, right? So when you say things like your logo, your letterhead, your business cards, your employee uniforms, your packaging, they are all elements of your visual brand. And then your engagement with your market through your events through your media presence through your tagline and slogans and you know the content on your website, that's your message brand. And when you bring bring them together, that's all of those elements. So you know people think of all the factors of a brand as their brand, but it's all pieces of the bigger puzzle.

Peter Reynolds  10:03  
I'm wondering, for those people listening who are maybe starting the process, you know, and I think that very often the first thing people think of is the name of their company. And the logo. Just as you said, having that wrench finding that perfect, you know, pick art, which they can use. What would you say? is the first step in? Is it? Is it sort of identifying who your customers are? And the services you want to provide? And, and, does that become your brand? Or what are some of the first steps?

Damon Adachi  10:35  
Wow, great question. And in fact, the first steps are so far removed from the finished product that you'd be surprised, you know, when you are building your business plan, when you are thinking about what is in your cardboard box of goods and services, and you're thinking, how is this going to be unique? From my competitors? What am I going to have as an advantage as a unique offering, that's the genesis of your brand. And then being able to formalize all of the features of what you offer the advantages of those that differentiate you from your competitors, and the benefits that the buyer receives, which build that user experience. That's when you crystallize like, Okay, this is who I am in the market, I am the provider in this, I'm the strongest, I'm the best at this, you get into your value statements and mission statements, you're still not even thinking about the logo, right? So it's very early on in the process, when you're talking about the viability of your business and how it is that you're going to find success. And then understanding that your commitment to that shapes part of that brand too. Like if you say, we want to be the best in customer service in this in this particular industry, because there's a lot of failures, we think we can carve out a big piece of the pie by being the most customer focused, and build that into your brand and how it looks and how it sounds and how it presents. So it's way before you even put, like drafting pencil to paper and think of a logo. It's way earlier than that.

Peter Reynolds  11:58  
Yeah, it's really interesting. The I know, for myself, I mean, we talked about been in business for 20 years. And, I look at my, I often look at my logo, and I've been staring at that thing for so long. And I you know, and I want to change it, I want to update it, I want things to be hip and new. And but then I also kind of, I worry because I think well, that's sort of how we're known, and do I really want to do I really want to change that.

Damon Adachi  12:28  
Right? And brand recognition is powerful over a 20 year period, for sure. So I'm not going to put you on the spot and ask about all of the the background of your brand and how it's developed. But I will tell you a bit about mine. So my logo is a paper airplane, and my company's called Seven Fold. And I chose that because the term seven fold immediately makes you think of return on investment. That's, you know, anytime you put a number before the word fold, it's about I put out this much and it came back tenfold or it came back seven fold, right? So it had that that interference. But my brand story is in my opinion, wonderful. Because what I say is you can take an ordinary two dimensional sheet of paper. And in seven folds, you have something with three dimension and flight and direction. And the skies the limit, right? And light bulb goes on for people and they think, wow, that's clever. I like that. And it demonstrates my creativity and the way I approach my business and my vision and things like that. Right? So For the Record Productions is an excellent company name because it's talking about, you know, capturing for the record, and what would you put on record as your very best, that's what you would want in the end. But hey, give me some more insight into what goes behind that brand name. 

Peter Reynolds  13:48  
Yeah, absolutely. So I started this company with my father 20 years ago. And we basically, he had a television show on CBC called the Disability Network, which was the first television show in North America written and produced by people with disabilities. And from that show evolved, we sort of saw this need that, you know, there were all these groups out there, whether they were minority groups or people with disabilities that weren't being served by traditional media. And we thought, what if we started a company that's goal was to sort of give voice to those individuals and those organizations. So our original tagline as it were, was using video technology to serve people in groups neglected by other media. And it was For The Record. This... it came from a kind of a news and current affairs sort of background, it was about the facts and getting the facts right and getting them out there. And so that's sort of how the company started and we work primarily with nonprofits and primarily with disability groups. And it's interesting because our focus has changed in some ways over the years, it's sort of interesting because we would always be focused solely on marketing to nonprofit organizations, and charities. And that was our primary focus, because that's what we did, we were sort of making videos that made a difference. And we were working to that goal. 

Damon Adachi  15:28  
Great challenge. 

Peter Reynolds  15:30  
Thank you. The challenge was, is that we were marketing to people with no money. And invariably, charities were looking for donations or groups didn't have... they were these were sort of small organizations, they did not have any money. And it was very challenging to sort of find those organizations that that did have money that did have sort of an ongoing source of income. Now, you know, we sort of shifted then to sort of to start to focus on like, membership driven organizations, because they basically had a budget, they had a communications department, they had a budget to be able to do these things.

Damon Adachi  16:18  
So like associations and things like that. 

Peter Reynolds  16:20  
Exactly, exactly.

So it, but it's definitely been a challenge. Because every so often, I do think, well, maybe I should focus more on the corporate side. But that kind of corporate style, video commercials and things, that is not what we excel at. We excel at, sort of day in the life, documentary style, having people tell their own story in their own words, that is the kind of work that we excel at. 

Damon Adachi  16:48  
Well, you excel in what you're passionate about. And you know, first of all, I congratulate you for being so progressive 20 years ago to be serving an underserved market. But also, like in my experience in working with nonprofits and associations and organization, organizations like that, I get way more fulfillment out of knowing I'm making a difference for my clients, and not being so concerned about bottom line profit. And that's when you do your best work. Right. So perhaps that's something to to investigate with your brand to say, is that message getting through, is that is it clear to people that we do what we love, and we're great at it. And we want to make a difference for our clients more than we provide slick, professional, commercial style, you know, Oscar award winning video, that then market is being served already, right. So as your business evolves, your brand should evolve with it. But at the core, your brand, your business hasn't changed, because you're focused on delivering value to markets that need the most help. And that make a difference for them in a significant way. So in terms of visually updating, you know, you'd mentioned to me off off camera about how companies like CIBC are refreshing their look. And companies like REMAX have done the same thing in recent years. They keep a core feeling whether it's a color scheme, or a general reviews of some graphic elements, so that they retain that recognition. But I think if you saw a REMAX logo on a for sale sign today, you wouldn't even recognize that it had been updated until you saw it against the old version. But they've modernized their typeface, they've cleaned up their lines, they've made it more crisp and modern. And they're trying to keep pace with all of the new Purple Bricks and independents that are out there, right. So you know, it doesn't hurt to keep your pulse fresh with your brand and make sure that you're keeping it dynamic and onpoint in in style. I mean, I drive around and see some industrial complexes that the 60s logos that are still on buildings, and I cringe. I think I gotta call these people because that logo is out of the 60s and it shows right. So yeah, it definitely is worthwhile to keep modern, but you can't lose that key message. That was the reason you started your company in the first place.

Female Voice  19:14  
We hope you're enjoying this episode so far. Pros and Conversations is brought to you by For the Record Productions, providing video production services to corporate and nonprofit clients for over 20 years. To learn more about how we can help your business visit VideosThatMatter.ca. And by the Business Alliance, a professional peer group that helps you grow your business through networking, collaboration and sound advice. To learn more about how to become a member visit JoinTheAlliance.biz.

Peter Reynolds  19:45  
Yeah, I think that you know being true to who you are and then making that decision. Really as a when you're starting your business, figuring out what that is and then everything follows from that, the logo, the design, every thing follows from that. Yeah, so in terms of, of, of branding, so once you sort of figured out what your brand is going to be, how do you go about marketing that brand, because I know you know, they talk about brand marketing, and they talk about direct marketing. And maybe we could talk a little bit about that.

Damon Adachi  20:22  
Well, to differentiate those two brand marketing is about exposure. It's about sponsoring, it's about promoting, it's about, you know, being at a trade show when we actually had live events, where you're just a face in the sea, but you need people to have registered it and remembered it so that when you have the chance to do more direct marketing, there's recognition. In terms of how you take a brand to market, and how you go to market, it evolves. So you start with the logo, right, you start with that piece, once you've done your homework on what it is that needs to say. And then you blow it out into a full design palette that would, you know, show up in your stationery and in your PowerPoint presentations. And in your brochures, you want that same style to be consistent. So that kind of draws right into the key tips on how to make a brand strong. Visually, you want to have clarity, it has to be... you see it initially and you get it right away. It's not like a optical illusion, where you've got to sit and study and figure out what it is you're looking at. You want consistency, so that, like you say people recognize a Nike swoosh, they don't see it stretched, they don't see it in a weird color, they don't see it upside down. They've see it consistently every time because that speaks to your ability to deliver consistently on your value. And professionalism is the last key point for your visual brand. There's a rampant cancel culture out there, as we all know. And if you are even slightly leaning into something that isn't going to be well accepted and professional, then you're definitely at risk. On the message side of your brand. You kind of want to root it in some key things like truth, integrity, and community. Because if people think that you're just in business for your own profit, then they will never really want to be engaged, right? They'll say what's in it for me, you're giving me a product, I'm giving you my cash, that's it, relationship is over, I'm not going to tell you what I want next. I'm not going to tell other people about what great things to do. Right? I'm not going to be engaged to be one of your, you know, following one of your communities. So you have to always be truth rooted in what you tell people about your brand, with integrity, and with a design to build a community because that's how you foster longer term success as a business. So like, I know, it's a lot to process in just a podcast version without any visuals. But you know, you want your brand to be clear, consistent, professional, rooted in truth, integrity, and building community.

Peter Reynolds  22:57  
Yeah, I like the building community, you know, this idea of, you don't necessarily need to appeal to everyone that you can, this idea of that you want you build a community of people who want to support what you're doing, see what you're doing as kind of something that part of their identity. I think of, you know, kind of local coffee shops, that they almost go out of their way to be the antithesis of a Starbucks, because they know, there's people out there that that will appeal to,

Damon Adachi  23:33  
Yes, and you want grassroots growth, because that's how you stay on the pulse of what your market wants, right? You know, you offer that that niche market coffee house, and people will say, here's what I love about this, and they'll be engaged with you. And they'll tell you, you know, what you guys need is, and they help you figure out how to serve them better, and more and longer. And you don't get that by just, you know, hocking something online, and you're trying to sell the next viral product, that there's no engagement with the brand. And there's no community, like you say, of like minded individuals. I mean, we're in this global economy now. Right? So your community can be global, if there is a niche interest or need. And if you can serve that globally, you can be very successful, even at a small business level, to completely meet those needs and develop a strong loyal following of consumers. It's very exciting.

Peter Reynolds  24:33  
Absolutely. I know that something funny enough, I learned from you. When we were when we started the networking group, and we were talking about, you know, who are you marketing to, you know, and getting new customers. And I think there's, there's this sort of this infinity approach of... I want as many customers as I can get, why would I not want more customers? And as you had said, you know, in the type of business that you have, you know you don't want 1000 new customers, you want five really good customers. And it's absolutely true that this sort of scattershot approach that I might have been doing before, in terms of marketing is absolutely not the way to go. You want to very specifically target, in my case in any way. 

Damon Adachi  25:23  
Yeah, part of that is part of that is your operational ability to handle 20 new customers at once, you probably can't right? And you think of it selfishly that way, well, what I really want is three copies of my best client, right? On the other hand, take yourself out of your self involved view as a as a businessman, which we all love, and think about it from your client. And if you were marketed to in a way, that was a mass shotgun marketing approach, like the real estate agent that drops off flyers at every house on your street, you quickly realize they're just grabbing at whatever they can get, and you're not going to get that personalized, invested, kind of customer experience. Because that's not what they're selling. They're selling a fishnet, catch whatever you can. Come one, come all. And I just want to churn you through to the next customer. So it's funny that even your marketing approaches speak volumes about your brand, and the values that you have as a company. So back in the day when it was faxes. Oh, my God, can you believe we're talking about this, but people were sending 20,000 faxes through machines overnight as marketing. That is doing more to destroy your brand in sketchy black and white annoying, which is now you know, email marketing, which was becoming nonsense. It's doing more to destroy your brand, and what you represent and value than do anything to develop business.

Peter Reynolds  26:48  
100% I think there's those flyers we get every day, you know, or the or the phone calls, we all get for Duct Cleaning Services. And they are eventually going to hit somebody who just happened to say, gosh, you know, we need our ducts clean today. And that phone rings. And you know, that's what they're counting on. Because for them, it's just about volume. It's just about, you know, can I get the job and get out? Right. And I'm always fascinated, and I think we can probably get into this more later in the series. But that those sorts of businesses out there that don't really care about repeat business, that you know, and I often think about some of these specialty restaurants that are or, or places that are in touristy areas, that the food is not very good, but it's a theme restaurant. People go there for fun. They do it once, they never do it again. But they know that they've got people coming in right behind them. And how unusual that is. I don't know, I've always found that fascinating.

Damon Adachi  27:57  
Yeah, it's interesting to me that when we think of the Business Alliance group that we belong to, and the members that we have, so few, if any of those, I can't really think of one off the top of my head is a transactional business. You know, like a locksmith, or a exterminator, or something where it's an at needs service, which, like you say, is just transactional, I need as many as I can get this month, and get them out the door. We are relationship building businesses, almost to a man and woman in the group. And that requires, you know that, that real attention to the customer experience, and developing loyalty and developing testimony from your clients, and a much higher level of engagement, which is how, you know, your brand represents you in trying to foster those great things that your clients can offer you.

Peter Reynolds  28:47  
Transactional versus personal. It's interesting, because what I'm, just as you said that out loud, you were saying transactional, and I started to think of, of the businesses and vendors that I use. And what I'm seeing now is transactional companies trying to become more personal, and they recognize that and an example that happened recently was Mr. Rooter. So you know, they do plumbing, you have them in, they fix your fix your sink, they're gone. I never think of them again. But now, there's a membership program. There's loyalty points. If you if you're a member, the prices are reduced. Personal service where you're assigned an actual person who you will get the next time as well. So they're, they're doing a lot to sort of build this relationship. So now it is true. Getting back to the first thing we talked about when you said, is price a consideration? Yes, it is. But I am much more likely to go back to them because they will say my name when I call them. They know my house, they know what's happened before, I'm much more likely to say, You know what, let's just let them deal with it. They know what the issues are here. Rather than somebody brand new that I have to explain it all to but save $50.

Damon Adachi  30:12  
And you wouldn't think that that kind of operational mentality about your business is part of your brand. But it is. It's a key component of delivering value in a way that becomes recognizable and consistent and professional and, you know, high integrity and building community. So it all comes back to you know, people think they pigeonhole the word brand into a logo. And it is so much more. And in fact, it's a very mystifying topic for a lot of businesses. And I love to demystify it by explaining that, that process and saying, the definition of marketing in my books, is the development and management of your brand. And that is very separate from sales. You know, sales and marketing get lumped together lots of times in lingo, they are diametrically opposed in most businesses. Because salespeople say, Hey, I'm on the front line, I know what my customer needs, just give me what I need, I'll do the talking. And marketing says, This is what you should be saying to represent our values appropriately. Right, and sales, because that's not going to get me the sale. Like you got to understand I'm here on the front lines. So they end up competing a lot of cases within companies. So marketing is more about let's get the messaging right, and the values, right, and communicate them cleanly and properly. And consistently throughout our organization. And sales is more about, you know, personal relationships, and customer relationship management and being the face of the brand. Right? So you know, it's challenging to to manage all of this at once. But I love the sense of saying marketing in a box in a term is the management and development of your brand.

Peter Reynolds  31:52  
It is fascinating. The obviously we could talk about this for hours. Before we finish today's episode, I thought I'd mentioned five fun facts about the world's biggest brands. And these are some fun ones that I found online. And they talk about Coca Cola as logo can be recognized by 94% of the world's population. I mean, that's mind blowing. It's never changed. It's absolutely crazy. Facebook, we talked about the idea of choosing a color for your logo. Facebook is blue, because Mark Zuckerberg is red, green, color blind. Isn't that great? When designing Facebook? Blue is what he sees best. So he went with blue.

Damon Adachi  32:46  
And that's, you know, I find that interesting. And I'm not going to derail your list. But blue is a very corporate cold, you know, very financial color. It's not a social color at all. So that's very, and it's almost set the trend for many other social networks like Twitter, and they followed in his footsteps because of that. That's very interesting.

Peter Reynolds  33:04  
Absolutely, absolutely. Starbucks designed round tables, so customers wouldn't feel lonely. And it's fascinating because for Starbucks, it's all about a sense of community. This idea, it's not so much about the coffee, it's about that coffee culture, that they foster. 

Damon Adachi  33:24  
Is that why their logo is round too, so drop right onto the table.

Peter Reynolds  33:27  
I would not be be surprised. But it's funny, I was talking about it with my wife and saying, you know, because if you have a square table, there's four spots. Or if you're the only one sitting there, it's pretty obvious. Where are the other three people? You know, why are you sitting there by yourself? 

Damon Adachi  33:45  
Loser. 

Peter Reynolds  33:46  
Yeah, exactly. But the sort of the roundtable is, well, you know, it can be for one, it can be for many. As I was doing some more research, there are all kinds of other reasons, like it can be configured in more ways than square tables. It encourages people to sit together. I mean, there's so many... it's so interesting that something like the shape of a table, you know, would factor into somebody's brand.

Damon Adachi  34:11  
To your brand. Well, what for me is even more interesting is for decades, we've used the car industry as the comparable that everybody can relate to. But when you think of the coffee industry and how we've gone in 20 years, from 99 cents to $8 for a coffee, on this day in 2022. It's $8 for those people listening when it's going to be $12. Like that takes a massive shift of mentality in your entire market to get away with that, when you're not offering anything better, except an experience with roundtables.

Exactly. So here's another one, so Kentucky Fried Chicken became KFC to downplay the Fried to more health conscious customers.

That is the number one reason why I got into branding. That kind of psychology and playing with people's perceptions is exactly why I love branding and marketing. It's amazing. To this day there are there are kids, my kids included, who wouldn't be able to tell you what KFC stands for. That's ridiculous. It's amazing. 

Peter Reynolds  35:26  
This is same thing for me. I know. It's not on the list. But this is something that blew my mind was when I saw they had McDonald's pizza. And I would walk by these giant billboards, and it was just the word pizza. But the Zeds were McDonald's. M's turned on their side. And I remember going genius. You don't need to say anything else. You know exactly what it is. And I, that kind of stuff just just totally gets me going. And the last one is, and you might not be aware of this, Damon, but that one in 10 Europeans were conceived on an Ikea bed.

Damon Adachi  36:10  
It doesn't shock me at all. It doesn't. I recently heard that the number one publication worldwide year over year, is the Ikea catalog. More than the St. James Bible or anything like that. And more than any professional text, the number one printed publication, by volume every year, is the Ikea catalog.

Peter Reynolds  36:30  
Well, thank you so much for sharing your insights with us. Damon. It's been a great conversation. Sure.

Damon Adachi  36:35  
It's been a pleasure to be here.

Peter Reynolds  36:36  
Thank you. Damon Adachi is the marketing consultant with Seven fold Marketing. I'm Peter Reynolds, and thank you for listening to Pros and Conversations.