Episode 4: The Motherhood Penalty: Challenges Facing Mother’s with Demanding Careers

Host Peter G. Reynolds and Damon Adachi speak with Kinia Romanowska, CEO and Founder of Pros & Babes and the MoMBA, about the challenges faced by mothers with demanding careers and how they can turn the “motherhood penalty” into their greatest strength. 

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Transcript

Peter Reynolds  0:04  
Hi, I'm Peter Reynolds and welcome to Pros and Conversations. A podcast that not only speaks to inspiring people from the world of science, business and the arts, but provides real tips to help aspiring entrepreneurs reach their goals. Today, I'm joined by Damon Adachi, and he is a marketing consultant with Seven Fold Marketing. How's it going, Damon?

Damon Adachi  0:26  
Great. Thanks for having me back. I hope I can contribute something to this topic. I'm not quite an expert, but very interested in where it's going.

Peter Reynolds  0:34  
Well, in all our conversations, you know, about entrepreneurship, you know, in starting a small business, you know, we sort of touched on this idea of the unique challenges, you know, faced by women entrepreneurs, but in particular, mothers who want to become entrepreneurs, you know, or mothers with careers and looking for ways to balance that.

Damon Adachi  0:55  
Right. And I have four children. So that gives me some cred in the mothership category, I think.

Peter Reynolds  1:05  
Well, the great thing is, is that you know, we both are married, we both have kids, but we're definitely not experts in this area. And that's why it's really great to bring on our guest Kinia Romanowska, and she is the CEO of Pros and Babes and the founder of the MoMBA program, Kinia, welcome to Pros and Conversations.

Kinia Romanowska  1:26  
Thank you for having me, Peter.

Peter Reynolds  1:29  
So let's just jump right into it and tell me what is Pros and Babes.

Kinia Romanowska  1:34  
We're an organization where we help careers and families grow. So when I went on my first maternity leave, I was told I would miss the intellectual conversations. And little did I know that this little sentence would change my entire life, when I started bringing together mothers with demanding careers to learn, grow and connect. And that was about four and a half years ago, it was a moms group. And now it turned into my full time career with staff and we run a program that is very attractive to career minded moms, particularly in STEM fields, but not only because Peter, as you may know, 43% of women leave full time stem employment after having kids and it's 23% for men. So we noticed that the work we do really helps women to redefine their identity after having kids, you know, redefine their values and priorities, or take awareness of them become more aware of them, and so that they can function better in family and career. And we see women, you know, getting results like a 40% promotion and going down to four day workweek, while being a very valued member of their organizations, we see women getting promotions, during and after maternity leave, we see marriages strengthened. We see wealth plans defined and families networks growing, when they do this critical work that we do as a community, through a through a curriculum, through networking, through learning together and through changing our mindsets. 

Peter Reynolds  3:04  
It's fascinating, you know that, you know that there were no resources like this available before you started it. And I'm wondering if you could take us back a little bit to what you were doing beforehand, you know, and what sort of made you decide to kind of take that leap, you know, to becoming a full time entrepreneur?

Kinia Romanowska  3:22  
Yes. Thank you. That's a great question. So my career has been in the Information Industry, it has spanned investigative journalism. So when I lived in Montreal, and when I was based there, I did investigative follow the dollar stories, like in the construction industry, for example, but also international journalism. So I traveled, you know, to, to Zambia, Guatemala, the former Yugoslavia, I was really fascinated by countries that were hit by adversity and also telling the stories of local people and Canadians. So when I moved to Alberta to join my husband, I pivoted into corporate communications, you know, using a lot of the skills that I that I had from from journalism. And it's really motherhood that that triggered that pathway towards entrepreneurship. I had always had that entrepreneurial spirit. Even as a journalist, I founded an international online magazine that lived on after I pivoted to other projects. But but Pros and Babes really in a way took a life of its own when when I started it, I didn't know that we were going to really fill a gap and I started getting calls from all over Canada. You know, asking When are you coming to my city? I really need something like that or older women and you know, thirty years my senior said Where were you and I was having kids I so wish something like that was they are so it's, you know, entrepreneurship, it's kind of I think it's a calling and for me it did take a life of its own. I remember that specific moment. It's so vivid in my mind in our townhouse with my really young son, I was there on his bed to you know, the wind, the curtains were drawn, I was probably nursing him to sleep. And I told my husband you know, I would like this to be a business one day like really not but not just a hobby. And so one thing led to another working during lunches and evenings and hiring my first contractors then doing a crowdfunding campaign. And then when COVID hit, we moved our programming from in person to online with a scalable business model. And you know, before I knew it, revenue was growing, I was hiring more people. Now I'm at that kind of messy, I would say scaling phase, where really hiring professionals to support me letting people take over chunks of the business. And so so I think when I look back on the whole journey, it's a calling, it's it just, there were a lot of inevitable inevitabilities, I set something in motion. And then you know, it just grew bigger and bigger enough, obviously, I'm driving it, but it's like, there, it's a force greater than I am, I don't think I have other words, to describe it.

Peter Reynolds  5:51  
There's a real momentum, you know, when you're starting your own business, and I love when you said calling, and Damon, I've talked about this, you know, before, you know, often we're, you know, we're drawn to the idea of taking control of our lives, starting our own business, you know, becoming an entrepreneur, because maybe we're a little tired, you know, of the, you know, sort of the day to day, you know, we're putting in 50 hours, 60 hours, but what we do is we give up that 50 or 60 hours that we're putting into a corporate job to put 100 hours into our actual passion.

Damon Adachi  6:28  
Now, what's even more interesting to me sorry, Peter, is that, you know, you talk about that calling, and you feel that you know, you want to create, but we've been in that element of becoming a parent, and I don't think it's a coincidence. And you know, your business is your baby as well. And, like, personally, I was on maternity leave when I started my business. And I had the opportunity to step back from work from the corporate life, and be at home with my newborn son. But I also had the opportunity to start thinking more creatively in that process, which spawned my business. So it's interesting that there are actual parallels between parenthood and entrepreneurialship.

Peter Reynolds  7:06  
Yeah, and I know you talk Kinia about this idea of, you know, your you have to get on the same page with your partner. Yeah, how much of that is a challenge, you know, for, for, for women who want to, you know, find that balance, you know, between their career and motherhood?

Kinia Romanowska  7:25  
That's a really interesting question. So what I would say overall, it is a challenge for women. For some people, it's a little bit easier. For others, it's harder, the starting point for the discussion in our community is value. So our community members, they begin their journey, we do a values board and a 25 year vision board. And we encourage our clients to do that with their partners. And so it will probably come as no surprise to you that for those whose values are more closely aligned, there's less conflict. For those who see a more significant divergence in their core values than they have to embark on the journey a little bit more strategically. So we're huge fans of therapy. A lot of people in our circles who have demanding careers, couples therapy is, is recognized as very beneficial. And one of the reasons this is such a big challenge for couples is that traditionally, women take on the bulk of caregiving duties. Now, in our circles, we see very, very present fathers. In my own relationship, my husband plays an enormous role in the care of our children, in fact, a lead role in many aspects. But for many family constellations, the mother takes on literally a second full time job, the mental load of caring for children, not just the diapers and the food, but thinking of all you know, the emotional and mental and domestic load, like the project management that underpins the family economy, typically is absorbed by the mother, right, because of traditional gender roles, we haven't really evolved our mindset as a society, like naturally and organically. And it's not, I'm not saying it's all men's fault, because women tend to engage in something called maternal gatekeeping, where actually, they might not let the partners right, they like the they will act as gatekeepers of how things are done. And so many women have to take a step back and realize, okay, I want my partner to be a more quote unquote, equal participant, but they have to create the space for that to happen. They have to understand that there's not just one way to parent right, and so that's a huge step. That's a challenge in itself. So circling back values, defining a common family vision, why are you doing this? Why are you now know you were told you could have it all as a career woman you realize that? You know, the instruction manual didn't come with that. So why are you doing this? Why are you and your partner going to pursue this journey of maybe dual career households while juggling having children in a pandemic, the couples who have more clarity around their values and their vision are better equipped to navigate the day to day ups and downs, versus, you know, getting stressed and like super anxious every time an obstacle comes. Because inevitably, every single day, you're like solving, solving crises, right with children during a pandemic and career. So that is, that is that it is a challenge, but it's not an insurmountable challenge.

Peter Reynolds  10:27  
Yeah, I would think that, you know, that partnership is just going to be, you know, two heads are better than one when it comes to solving these problems. And if you don't have your partner on board, it becomes almost impossible. If you're not if you're not on the same page. And I know when you talk about those gender roles, I mean, I don't know if you experienced this, Damon, but I know, you know, my mom would refer to, if my wife was going out that I was babysitting, I would say, you know, I'm not not actually babysitting the, I'm the father. So, but there's just that, that idea of, you know, when the dad is hanging out, he's a very present dad, you know, he's an engaged dad, when the mom is doing something with the child, she's just being a mom. So absolutely, that double standard exists, I was going to ask you about, you know, the particular challenges for women in STEM fields, because, you know, these are individuals who are an incredibly driven, you know, and have spent, you know, their entire lives, getting to this point in their career, and then, you know, and then they want to have a family. But, you know, this idea of even thinking about that, is there any sort of guilt or shame, you know, associated with wanting to continue their career, because somehow, that makes them, you know, less of a parent, you know, do those feelings of guilt and shame exist, you know, with with, with new moms?

Unknown Speaker  12:03  
Well, guilt and shame are two different things, although we tend to talk about them together. Right. So shame is often the feeling of I am not enough, and I, you know, what I do is never enough. Guilt is, to me, it's a signal that there's something off regarding your value. So when we have strong emotions, right, and we're doing something and we feel guilty is because there's some misalignment with, with what we value with, with our family values. So yes, I see those those are not seams that we like dwell on, I think we acknowledge and then we we look, okay, well, what are you building? Why is it important for you to be a working mom? Why are you working? What are you teaching your children through that. And I think when people have a clarity of the why, and the value is that the guilt doesn't become so debilitating, right. And so, if you're doing something by choice, and even if you engage your kids in the decision making process, then that can definitely help. One of the biggest challenges I've heard with mothers going on maternity leave in STEM fields is, as they announced their pregnancies, they feel shut out. And so it you know, it could be for, there could be safety reasons, for some women due to the pregnancies regulation may not allow them to be in risky situations. But I've heard that theme over and over again, that all of a sudden in terms of engineers, they're not engineers, they're female engineers, they're engineers who are going to have babies. And so they've worked so hard to maybe be the first woman in the room. And then when the pregnancy is announced or disclosed, then all of a sudden, like they start being pulled out from projects or that's not everywhere. There's some women who have amazing maternity leave experiences. I have a few clients who work at large energy companies, and they say my managers were very supportive. I was very encouraged. But I've heard that also, you know, feeling shut out, right. There's also I just mentioned this often being the only woman in the room. So if you work, I don't know, 60 - 80 hour shifts, or you have a fly in - fly out partner or you are fly in - fly out, then that puts stress, I mean, it's physically stressful, right? And so managing that with a pregnancy and being afraid to disclose it. In many cases for their first pregnancy, women have been anxious with the second leave, maybe they're with us or they worked with us. They're much more strategic and they kind of decide when should I disclose, why how do I want to communicate that in a way that's favorable for my career, but for many, it's just like that whole idea of disclosing they are going to go on leave and then you know, they know am I going to be seen as less valuable, is an additional layer of, of juggling, right? Like the fatigue, the nausea, the the fact that you're going to give birth, it's huge and it can feel very, very lonely to navigate that right if you're a pioneer.

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Damon Adachi  15:22  
Interesting. When my wife went on her maternity leave with our, with her first child, she actually only took four months. And her office was very concerned. They were like, Are you sure but she was in events. And those deadlines are non negotiable, right? Those event dates can't be moved. She was right there and was with child, sometimes on show floor with the baby. And they gave her a closet to feed the child in and it was very accommodating. And to your point earlier, Peter, the greatest judgment that we had to deal with was from our parents. And you know, she knew that as her partner, I was fully supportive to be the primary parent for a period of time. And that was a term that we had back and forth now. But yeah, it's the traditional viewpoints that you're actually fighting against more than your partnership as a couple.

Peter Reynolds  16:15  
It seems incredibly overwhelming. I mean, what you're saying all the things that, that, you know, expectant moms have to deal with in their careers, and then when they give birth to things they have to deal with. And this brings us to you creating the MoMBA program. And just a great title, by the way. Tell me about what is MoMBA?

Kinia Romanowska  16:39  
Well, as you can probably hear from the term, there's mom, and there's MBA. And so we did the term portmanteau, right? When you put two words together. So we we apply some business strategy elements to motherhood, and we encourage women and we teach women to be the CEOs of their lives. We from a young age, when you're career driven, we're encouraged to be strategic, like, what do you want to be when you grow up? How much money do you want to make all of that? But are we strategic about our family choices, that the impact and the legacy we want to leave behind? So that's what the MoMBA is about. It's about getting very clear on what you want for your mindset, right? Just like we eat food, we can choose what we put in our brains. And when you become a mom, you go through the process of metrasence, acknowledging the changes, embracing the values change, embracing your role as a mother and professional is so empowering, it puts you back in the driver's seat, right? It's so easy, and I've been there. And still, I see some patterns coming back now as I'm scaling my business, getting in victim mode, right? But like, but I'm a mom, I thought everybody was gonna support me and like, we have diversity and inclusion policies. Why isn't anybody holding my hand? Right? That was that was me. That was me. And I was angry and upset, and it felt like a victim. And so when you're suffering, like as moms were sleep deprived, or hormones have changed, it's so there's so many circles where you can indulge that like, Oh, My life sucks. I'm so tired. This is so hard. What we do in the MoMBA is we flip it into an opportunity. Okay, it's hard you've changed. What do you want to believe? Which values are we going to live by? How do you structure your relationship with your partner so that you're on the same team and build the legacy together? What kind of support systems do you need to put in place if you want to succeed, because if you try to do everything on your own, you're on the fast track to burnout. So outsource, if you want to protect your sanity and your career. What does health look like for you? What do you need to do to stay healthy mentally and physically? We work a lot on our nervous systems and the community together, like anxiety is high depression rates are high in our demographic. So how do we support each other? What do you do for your finances? We work with mothers who you know, say, oh, I want my net worth to be a million. I'm like no move that setpoint. And a month later, I'm on track to build a $6 million network plan, right? How do you define career life integration? I use balance in my in my let's say PR, because that's what people Google. But you know, work life balance can be a deceiving term. So we choose the word that matters for you. Harmony, integration, balancing, flow. Like if you choose a word that aligns with what you want, you can start you know, aligning your calendar. So take back control of your calendar. So we work a lot on time blocking, getting, you know, telling your calendar what to do not just saying yes to everything that people ask you to you don't have to be everything to everyone. Right. So I think I mentioned about six of the 12 modules that we cover. We take like a holistic approach. We also have two whole modules on leadership and career skills. So that's what the MoMBA is about is getting out of that, like, victim space to I'm back in the driver's seat. I'm surrounding myself with people who get me and I'm building the business strategy for my life so that in 25 years, you know, we can sit on a beach being healthy looking back on our family life together and not regret what we did, not regret that sometimes I worked 80 hour workweeks, and I was away from my kids. And boy, that hurt. But I was intentional. And so maybe another time we build beautiful memories together. And on the daily, I told my kids, I love them. I hugged them. I did tapping with them for, you know, stress release, emotional release. And I did my best. And we knew what best look like. And we tried every day. And we showed our kids that yes, this is tough. Yes, the world is not perfect for working moms. But we're doing this with intentionality and no regrets. Right. So that's what the MoMBA is about.

Peter Reynolds  20:40  
That's fantastic. Damon, your thoughts? Well,

Damon Adachi  20:44  
Yeah. So the one thing that really stuck with me and in terms of legacy is that you're, you know, you've we've, we've said in our personal lives, there's no license for having kids. And it shows sometimes, right? People don't, people don't have intention in raising families, it just they fall into it, and they fall backwards into it. The fact that you've added such levels of structure and organization and intention and planning and strategy to family building, as well as career building is excellent. And I think that, you know, beyond just what effect you're having today, in 10 years time, when you see the sort of children that get raised in these environments, that understand intention, that understand productivity, and understand planning and family values. I mean, for me, my number one job is not a marketing consultant. My number one job is a parent, and that's what I'm most proud of. So when you get to integrate both of those things at the same time, it's very inspiring, very inspiring. I'm very impressed. Love it.

Kinia Romanowska  21:43  
I thank you for saying that. And you know, when you when you talked about structure, that's, I think, why we attracted so many engineers, they're very process driven. There's like a manual for working motherhood, SOPs for working motherhood. So you know, I didn't necessarily intend to work with so many STEM women, but because of the structure, I think they found that very attractive. And I like to joke that my clients are so much smarter than me, so I'm gonna hire you to raise my kids, I'm gonna hire you to coach me because you're just taking what I developed with my skill set, and you're taking it to the next level, the level of consistency and implementation of my clients, my mind is blown, you know, it's just gorgeous. These women, their brains are so beautiful, right? And they take this structure and, and what I see happening with their children and the kind of the successes they have, and the emotional connection, because this month, we're talking about parenting, right? So I have this paper right here. It's kind of like one of our worksheets, but what does success look like? Like a parent, right? And so you can circle back to that. And it's funny how much we have in common terms of wanting to be guides to love deeply to nurture, right, and just having a compass like that, and Northstar on those tough days where you're, you're this close to you're losing your temper, or you've lost it, you know, when you're you're not proud, you go back to this and you can say, Okay, well, what did I define as success? How do I reconnect with my child? How do I show myself love and grace, because this is hard. But it's a teaching opportunity to show my children that I love them, and we love each other, even even in the anger, even in the outburst, even when our behaviors were ugly, right?

Peter Reynolds  23:23  
No, structure is very important, because I definitely as a parent, I know I'm making it up as I go along. You know, I bought all the What to Expect When Expecting, you know, and I can, I can admit now, the that I did not read it all the way through. So 

Kinia Romanowska  23:28  
You're catching up on sleep.

Peter Reynolds  23:47  
Exactly, exactly. So I love the idea of having that structure, you know, being able to go back, you know, and look at, you know, because you talked about values, you know, and how that was really a key, you know, sort of, you know, what are the values, you know, what are our values as a family, you know, what do we value, you know, and having that as the jumping off point, you know, for all these decisions that we're making. I know, in previously when we were talking this idea of outsourcing, you know, and I think it's very interesting how, particularly with, you know, individuals who are used to doing it all, you know, used to taking care of everything themselves, and how challenging that must be to say, you know, don't have to do everything yourself. There are some things you can outsource. Can can you talk a little bit about that? And maybe the things that you shouldn't be outsourcing as a parent?

Kinia Romanowska  24:41  
Yes. Okay. Let me start with the second one. All right, is that that you shouldn't outsource your values. You shouldn't you should consciously choose them because they, they're, they're the you know, the the foundational fabric out of which everything grows. It's kind of the soil of the garden of your company. So you You know, you, people are influencing you every single day. And why don't you choose to be the main influencer and quoting somebody I interviewed yesterday, she used that term, we're surrounded by influencers everywhere. But you have the choice to be the biggest influencer in your child's life. So I would say, never outsource those values. And when we started that conversation with clients, and I love this one story, particularly I shared all the time, when when clients said that her core VAT first core value was performance. And I was like, this is really interesting. This is the first time somebody says that because often family happiness or inner harmony or health become a top core value for people when they become parents, right? They might have been super ambitious, but like, there's a shift. And so I said, you know, let's explore that. And she reflected on it and said, you know, this is a value that actually came from my parents. And I realize it's not my top value, it was very valued when I was growing up. And her whole sense of identity was intertwined with performance. And it was such a monumental shift. It's like turning the Titanic, it's like you're going to a different lane, a different vehicle of how you're going to live your life, right. So it's so important to take stock of how you grew up, which values your parents instilled in you choosing which traditions doing to stick with consciously, and then realizing well, I live in a different day and age with different challenges, maybe that value maybe that tradition is not something we can honor in a way that's healthy for us. So that's never outsource your values. Or if you do so, do so consciously. Because if you think about religion, faith, right, these are century long traditions, I think it's very important to choose that if you're going to outsource part of them and align with a greater institution you're doing so consciously. But when it comes to outsourcing physical things like cleaning, meal prep, uh, you know, yard work, even decluttering of the home here we have a company that does concierging. And so they can come and organize parties for you all of that, handyman handy women do it. So many women who you know, thought I don't have the budget, I don't have the cash flow. And maternity leave is you know, it's expensive. It's temporary. If you're going to invest in your sanity, and your mental health and your future earning potential, maximize what really matters, being good at your job, being good in your family and your couple. That's what matters. In those first years, you have the potential, you're so smart, you're gonna make millions in your lifetime. So you know, that's when I hear my clients. This was the theme of this year, right. And there are also virtual assistants for those who don't have family close by or because of COVID. Sometimes you don't want to outsource as many physical things. They're like virtual assistants who can take off the mental load for you right and organizing things. So by far this year, that was the theme. I picture my clients in my mind who were thinking, No, we can't afford it. No, my husband will say no. And then they come back and they say, oh, I should have done this a year ago. My you know, we fight last we we spend more time with our kids, we're more intentional, I have more energy and more productive at work. It's so many professionals get bottlenecked and think only I can do this. While you do it and then next thing we know, I've seen it I've seen people who did not choose to go with us burnout, quitting their jobs, emotional crumble, I'm not saying you can't, you can do well without us. But I clearly see a significant difference with people who get help from therapists, from experts, from you know, just reduced the decision mode. It transforms lives. So I think I've made it pretty clear of where I stand on the topic.

Peter Reynolds  28:42  
I love that line, maximize what really matters. I think that is a lesson that we can all we can all appreciate. Right, Damon?

Damon Adachi  28:53  
Yeah, that's something that we definitely mentioned to starting entrepreneurs without even considering the family burden and the household weight of what you're doing there. But we you know, we tell young entrepreneurs, focus on where you need the most return on where you have the most to bring to the table and outsource things that you are not the expert in or don't have, you know, resources to invest in. Even though it's hard to let go with the wheel sometimes, that's your best play for success. And it's much easier to say that in talking about things like shipping and accounting, and marketing, it's much harder to say that about meal prep and bedtime and, and housecleaning, but it's the same concept and it makes perfect sense.

Peter Reynolds  29:34  
So Kinia, to finish off, if maybe you could talk to the listeners out there? Maybe there's someone who is, you know, in the STEM field, you know, very career minded and, they are looking to start a family you know, what's that sort of first thing that they should start to think about, you know, when it comes to finding that harmony?

Kinia Romanowska  29:56  
So asking being intentional from the get go and seeking mentorship early on, there are women who join and men and dads more and more dads who join our workshops, when their students and they join in the first 10 minutes say, oh, maybe this is too early for me, I say absolutely not. If you think you want a family, start making projections as soon as possible, you know, whether it's Gantt charts, cash flow charts, and what I like to do is, you know, have different categories of life, right? Like we do these 25 year career plans with our clients that look at how old are your kids going to be? How old your parents are going to be at different stages, right? So start asking yourself the question, I'm going to try to I can complicate things a little bit early on in the process, but I want to say, prepare that there's going to be a huge change, right? Parenthood is going to affect your values and priorities. Think from the start how you want to talk about parenthood, if it's really important to you, don't hide it, start talking about it with mentors and safe circles early on. And so that when you are pregnant, you know when and how to announce it, you know, what your cash flow plan can look like? You've talked to a financial advisor about building wealth, that is a huge key part of our component, because you do hear me talking about the million dollar wealth gap that hits women, I'm sure that in STEM, it's like the $5 million wealth gap, because the more money you make the the higher earning potential, the higher the wage discrepancy. So to circle back, no parenthood is going to change you. Start examining your values early on, we did a values board with my husband before we had kids, right? Start having a picture of your legacy early on and 25 years, what would you like your kids to say about you? Right? Start getting financial advice early on, work on yourself leadership so that you can lead yourself with integrity and values and not have to ask an expert? Should I talk about my mat leave, my baby or not. You should know that from the heart based on your values, right? I would like you to feel empowered to be a leader and what matters to you so that you end up being with employers, organizations who align with you and you're not hiding a huge part of your identity. Right. So I hope that summarizes it like values, vision, intentionality, financial planning, as early as you can surrounding surrounding yourself with parents mentors, I think will set you up for much greater success than waiting until like, you're six months pregnant and thinking, Oh, well, you know, what's next for me, right? Think early in the process.

Peter Reynolds   32:34
And maximize what really matters. Kinia thank you so much for sharing your time with us today and I have definitely learned a lot. And I hopefully think this will inspire listeners out there to really kind of look at to assess their values. And assess when it comes to parenthood and career, and looking at the best ways to move forward. So thank you. 

Kinia Romanowska     33:05 
Thank you for this opportunity. I'm so glad you're raising awareness on a topic that is still not talked about very much. I'm so grateful. Thank you.  

Damon Adachi   33:12    
And how can women find you? Where can they find you? 

Kinia Romanowska     33:16
Great question so prosandbabes.com, I think I'll spell it out. Siri sometimes hears "frozen babes". So professionals and babies. prosandbabes.com. And that's where lots of our resources including our networking group is available. 

Peter Reynolds     33:34
And thank you to our Monarch of marketing, Damon Adachi for joining us again today. Thanks Damon. You have been listening to Pros and Conversations. I'm your host Peter Reynolds. We've been speaking with Kinia Romanowska who is the CEO of Pros and Babes and the founder of MoMBA program. 

Kinia Romanowska   33:57
Thank you.