Episode 5: Make a Customer, Not a Sale.

Peter Reynolds & Damon Adachi speak with Financial Planner Tim Keeler and Skyline Executive Sandra Kennedy about sales and the value of building strong customer relationships.

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• 26:44 (Cont.) Episode 5: Make a Customer, Not a Sale.

Transcript

Peter Reynolds  0:04  
Hi, everyone. I'm Peter Reynolds, and welcome to Pros and Conversations, the podcast that explores what it takes to be successful, whether you're from the world of business, science, or the arts. Today, we're going to be talking about a really important pillar of any business and that's sales. And essentially, regardless of what stage you're at, in your business, sales is absolutely key. Henry Ford said that nothing happens until somebody sells something. And nothing happens on this podcast until I talk to our co-host, Damon Adachi, who is sales consultant with or a marketing consultant, I should say, with Sevenfold Marketing. How are you Damon?

Damon Adachi  0:44  
Great. Thanks for having me back.

Peter Reynolds  0:47  
So Damon, I know we've got a couple of great guests today to talk about sales, and specifically talking about, you know, maintaining those customer relationships. But can we start off maybe by talking a little bit about the difference between sales and marketing?

Damon Adachi  1:04  
Yes, absolutely. So it's funny that you say sales and marketing, it's kind of two words that are sewn together in a lot of circumstances. But they're not very similar. They're almost diametrically opposed in a lot of organizations, because marketing is building the message and the vision and sales is taking it to the frontline. And you can sometimes have tug of war on what is the right thing to say and how to say it. Being a marketing consultant, I like to think of myself as an expert in marketing, and I'm terrible at sales, I don't enjoy the process. I don't like putting myself out there as much, definitely more of a customer relationship manager. And I'd like to do that. And we will talk about the difference between those two things as well with our illustrious guests here today.

Peter Reynolds  1:44  
Well, that's a big thing. For me, I think we're in the same boat, this idea of the prospecting, the cold calls, I am not a fan of that at all. So when I do get that customer, I want to make sure to treat that customer as good as I possibly can, you know, I want to learn as much about them as I can. Because I'm not someone that's out there trying to grab as many customers as possible. So my customers are particularly important to me because of that. And, and speaking of very important people, we have two terrific guests, who come from very different industries, and can talk about this topic from very different perspectives. And today we have Tim Keeler, and he's a certified financial planner, and guitar enthusiast. And we have Sandra Kennedy, who is a Senior Account Executive with Skyline. Welcome both to Pros and Conversations.

Tim Keeler  2:37  
Thanks, Peter and Damon. Good to be here.

Sandra Kennedy  2:39  
Thanks, Peter. Thanks for having me today.

Damon Adachi  2:41  
I think it's going to be interesting as we get into this, because Tim is more of a customer relationship manager and has a book of clients that he has to nurture and try and upsell and stay in touch with. And Sandra is in an event sphere, where you've got different people at different times and different exhibitors, and you get to reach out and try and, and be more of a hunter and finding new business. And I know both of these people very well, and their personalities gel quite nicely. But they're also very different. And I've always looked up to Sandra and her ability to be the voice in the room that can you know, draw in some attention and make people feel comfortable and put them at ease. So I'm excited to see how she's going to be here today in this call. Welcome both of you. Thanks.

So maybe both of you could start off just by telling the audience a little bit about your businesses, and how your businesses deal with sales. Maybe we could start with you Sandra.

Sandra Kennedy  3:40  
Sure. Thanks, Peter. So a little bit in that as Damon mentioned, and just to hit on quickly, as I tell you about myself with Damon talking about marketing and sales and the difference. I too, even though I'm not technically in marketing, I am in sales, do not like cold calls. And that type of my focus for sales is also client relationships. So maybe that's where we a little bit mesh, those two are sales and marketing. So I am in the tradeshow industry. So I have the.. it's interesting because I'm in sales, but in many different verticals. So I deal with I can be in the medical industry, I can be a manufacturing, I can be a retail store, or I can deal with you know, another type of brand and business so I'm in many different verticals that I do sales for, which I mean makes it a little bit of a different and unique kind of sales sales role for sure. 

Peter Reynolds  4:39  
And yourself Tim.

Tim Keeler  4:40  
I am not a solopreneur I've got a an assistant that's been with me for a little over 18 years now coming on to 19,  but I am the sales marketing department of the whole business. The difference I think is I try not to view myself as a salesperson Being in financial services, I've got a number of products and solutions that help people out. My clients need that. And I just provide the service.

Damon Adachi  5:09  
Excellent. So I've always thought to, in the in the line that if you're not selling something today, then there's nothing to eat tomorrow. And that's kind of the the idea behind a lot of these sales planning and forecasting models is where you realize that what you do this week, starts to come to fruition in three weeks and maybe closes in six weeks, and then only gets invoiced in eight weeks. So if you're not thinking about sales, now, things dry up very quickly. And I think Peter can also attest to that, when you get so focused in a project that you're more in the working in the business than on the business, and you're not trying to grow it, then things can just fall off a cliff if you're not careful. So just curious from your perspectives on how you structure your sales process to make sure that things are constantly filling the funnel,

Tim Keeler  5:58  
I can start with that. Because my life has changed in the last five years, the financial services industry has done an about face of how advisors are paid. So in the past, we were paid an upfront commission. And that was when I was young and hungry. And so there were sales aspects of that. Now, I'm paid in ongoing trailer fee based on the assets. So number one, it's not as exciting to have a big sale, because it doesn't have as significant of an immediate effect on my business. But it's also helped because, again, now I am a service provider, I am dedicated to the clients, and try and continue to do great things for them, which they make money and I continue to get paid. So it's I do like the way that that aligns my offering with the benefits for the client. So it's taken a little bit of that aspect out. I have been doing it for almost 29 years. So the book of business is significant enough that I can still eat next week, if I take a couple of days off. But it really has changed the, I guess, sales focus in my business  to be everything that I promised that I would be when they hired me in the first place. 

Damon Adachi  7:19  
And Sandra,

Sandra Kennedy  7:20  
sure. You know, I think it depends too on what stage and age of the game you are. And by age, I don't mean you have to be young to start sales. I didn't go. I mean, if anyone sees this from high school, who would have thought I was in sales. I didn't hit this until almost 40. But anyway, that's besides the point. But going in almost 15 years, I work strongly through a CRM system to be very honest. And that is for the simple fact of reminders and organization. And, and I probably if I'm really transparent, didn't really hit strengthen that till the last maybe, you know, four or five years after realizing how this tool could really work. So I think whether someone's starting out or whether you're a veteran in it, a CRM tool can be very great, because no matter how organized, we think we are, in my industry, being in trade shows, I do it from a look at the calendar year of main shows too. So over the years, I've gotten to know the big show's, where they are, what time of year they are. And when I need to look at strategizing to get  there and make the show and have a booth presence and have a job and like you said, Damon, you know, to keep the income rolling, I can't connect with someone a month before a large show or I'm going nowhere. So in that aspect, I use CRM and shows and what's coming up and look at the previous years with what clients I had and where they fit in, in everywhere, as well as prospecting and relationship building for new or new clients.

Peter Reynolds  8:57  
Can you talk just a little bit Sandra about CRM for those people who might not know what a CRM is?

Sandra Kennedy  9:03  
Sure, CRM is a customer relationship management tool. So all of... for example, all of my clients and prospective clients so they could be brands that I really want to do business with haven't yet. And they're all in that CRM, and every morning with a coffee, mine's tea, but coffee, tea, whatever you drink, is where I open it and it's got my reminders for the day. So I could put something in today in my CRM for a client I'm looking to, you know, build the relationship and a touch point with and mark something in that reminds me in three weeks, in three months, this is when I need to be getting a hold of a client that's going to a show in December. No matter how organized I think I am, I'm not going to think of that in April to contact people for their December show. But when it pops up in front of me in the morning, I'm absolutely gonna do that. And it allows me to put notes in and keep pictures of, in my case, their tradeshow booth or what they had before and what I'm building on. So you can put a lot of and CRMs have come a long way you can, I mean, you can have it on your mobile, you can link it to different your email. So it makes a big and I keep my email tracked in there. So I can go into any given client at any day, and I'll tell you every email I've sent them, because they're all in there. So I know exactly what's going on. So it just gives you a really good tool to relationship up.

Damon Adachi  10:34  
So for those of us who are entrepreneurs and still using iCal to, to keep on top of our business, it's time to upgrade to CRM, right. That's what the message is?

Sandra Kennedy  10:45  
Strong messages.

Tim Keeler  10:48  
Critical. 

Peter Reynolds  10:49  
It's interesting, Sandra, that that you. So go ahead.

Tim Keeler  10:54  
No, I was just gonna piggyback on that. But I live on a CRM system. My memory is so much better when I write stuff down.

Peter Reynolds  11:03  
It's interesting that you both use CRM. I mean, I freely admit, I don't . The I have a a not quite iCal, you know, the I have, you know, my own sort of system. You know, I probably every so often I would look into them. And then I found that sort of so much of my day was filled, it was kind of a make work thing. For me. It's like, let me fill up my CRM, and that there were sort of other ways that I thought I could, my time would be more would be better used in other areas. But I think I'm talking to you now it seems like that's more of kind of like short term goals as opposed to thinking long term because you're absolutely right. I mean, as you're working with a client, you get a sense of when convention season happens when their annual general meeting happens, and who can remember that with so many clients, but to get that, hey, you know, their AGM is coming up in two months, you might want to reach out and say, are they looking for a video. And so I think that's definitely something that's a simple tool. And it's been a number of years since I've looked at them. So, to Sandra's point, they probably have come a long way,

Damon Adachi  12:12  
Where I fall down is sometimes I don't think of a client until they call me for something else. And that's bad practice. And I'm lucky that they are calling me for something else. But it brings up the next point I'd like to address which is you know, from a sales point of view, nobody likes to prospect or cold call or put themselves out there. And it's much easier to upsell an existing client than it is to secure a new one. It's less heavy lifting, it's more profitable. So, you know, I imagine that's what both of you are doing is trying to upsell your clients, build relationships, bolt on new things and expand the portfolio every time you talk to them. So speak to how that works for you, and how that limits how much cold calling and prospecting you actually have to do.

Sandra Kennedy  12:54  
I think I was just gonna say for sure, as we all know, in business, or we're taught or we're told from the beginning, your best client is an existing client, always, right? I mean, in my case, I always hope to grow with them, if I I'm going to treat a client and everyone should treat a client whether you know, they're getting, in my case, a small banner stand to whether they're getting a large island booth space somewhere, because that banner stand client in five years might be my biggest booth client. So there's always that thought to and nurturing and building a relationship. And I think you can do that at the same time is prospecting for new that doesn't necessarily mean cold calling, I mean with what we have available now. For example, for me with LinkedIn and different tools that we have. Liking posts and engaging on in content that of a company you might want to build a relationship with, and they start to see this and reply, it's a good way to relationship build. So I cannot speak to cold calling, because I just, it's not my thing, and I'm gonna be honest about that. But I am still really all for prospecting and finding new business while you nurture and grow your existing business.

Peter Reynolds  14:06  
Yeah, I think that it's also becoming more difficult because there are more gatekeepers, when it comes to that phone call, or you know, you can't send cold emails to people anymore. So a lot of the tools that we might have used in the past are either no longer available to us or much more difficult. So I think we have to get creative. I think Sandra's point is a good one when it comes to going to LinkedIn, engaging with people on social media, not just using it as a platform to post your things. But getting those conversations with, join those groups that are connected to your company, sort of build those relationships, at least virtually untill you can somehow translate that into the real world.

Sandra Kennedy  14:47  
For sure. And just quickly to add and then I know Tim, you must have some great value to add here is why don't we ask for referrals. Why don't we ask clients for referrals? It is the big and it took me so many years to do that. You've got this great client, they're one of your best, they love you, you've had a great relationship. Why are we afraid to ask them? Do they know somebody who might need you too. So that's another key one, which has been a big one for me over the last year or two, which I think a lot of us get stuck in, oh, we don't want to but go for it. I'm telling you, it works.

Tim Keeler  15:26  
Yeah, I agree. Referrals are the best way, especially in my business, I have to build a mountain of trust, before somebody will do business with me. So cold calling, I was actually pretty happy when cold calling became taboo through privacy rules and stuff like that. And I kind of piggybacked off one of my dad's strategies, which was called the three foot rule that he coined himself. And he said, anybody within three feet of me deserves to know what I do for a living. And to Sandra's point, finding something that is a common interest with somebody so that it's a natural flow. He had a great career in a boating community, he was a boater and again, built a relationship with these people, which turned into great clients. Earlier on in my career, when the kids were younger, the dance studios and the music places, I would either hang out with the owners or participate somehow in a leadership role  in the studio itself. And that led to a bunch of introductions, which is just a natural fit. Once you build that rapport and that trust with somebody, then there's a natural evolution into what you do. But I was, I was really glad when the cold calling and delivering flyers and following up by looking at people in the phone book days, we're done. Because I really don't enjoy that. And once you've got a referral, the trust is already built and passed on from somebody else that that already trusts you. So it's much easier. I like it when you call and somebody's anxious, and excited to hear your voice rather than no, I don't need my air duct cleaned.

Sandra Kennedy  17:09  
I mean, exactly when's the last time any of us in with any of our sales friends, they say, Oh, I can't, I just can't wait to get to those cold calls tomorrow.

Damon Adachi  17:19  
I talked about, we've talked about how referrals are great. And we've also talked about, you know, building trust. So that leads for me, it leads into networking as a key component of your sales process. It's my entire sales process, to be honest with you. It shouldn't be I should do other things. But I've really invested in networking. And the four of us are in a networking group that support each other and help us find new business opportunities. But it reminds me Sandra of a story where in a networking group that we were in, somebody said, here are the companies that I would like to connect to, does anybody in this room have that connection? And Sandra put her hand up and said yes, I have somebody in that company. And I will forward you my LinkedIn contacts. And that turned into business for that gentleman, just for wishing out loud. So you know, networking is great in terms of helping build trust and getting somebody to vouch for you. But I'm sure we all have great success stories of referrals that you get from networking partners and events like that.

Female Voice  18:23  
We hope you're enjoying this episode aso far. Pros and Conversations is brought to you by For the Record Productions, providing video production services to corporate and nonprofit clients for over 20 years. To learn more about how we can help your business visit VideosThatMatter.ca. And by the Business Alliance, a professional peer group that helps you grow your business through networking, collaboration and sound advice. To learn more about how to become a member visit JoinTheAlliance.biz. 

Peter Reynolds  18:53  
Oh, I know for myself, that was a big reason for joining the group, you know, for joining the Business Alliance Damon, because networking was always one of my biggest weaknesses. I tend to and I work in the video production industry. And you're sort of either out in the field filming, you know, and you're basically going 10 - 12 hours. So there's no no time to chat, you know, with people you got a job to do. Or I'm in a dark editing suite, being Gollum, my precious. And  there's no, no time to think about working on the business, you know, because I'm working in the business. And so last year was a big year, you know, during COVID was I need I need to reach out I need to talk to people that are in similar situations. And I also have been able to do that sort of through other as Tim was saying, whether it's my have a writers group that I'm a part of, I have an improv group that I'm part of, and the more sort of threads that you can put out there and let people know. I think that's the biggest thing. Let people know what you do. Don't keep it a secret. Because hopefully there's somebody out there that if they, if they like you in an environment A, and they trust you and environment a, you already have a leg up to getting them to either use your services or refer you to somebody because that trust has already been built.

Damon Adachi  20:15  
So Tim, what are the tools do you use to stay in touch with clients so that your sales process doesn't peter out?

Tim Keeler  20:22  
I use a CRM. Quite often, I love the dental appointment style thing, when I've done a meeting with somebody, I always set an expectation of whether we're going to set the next meeting, or okay, I'm gonna give you a call in March. And then I put it in my CRM so that a reminder pops up and actually does it. But I guess the the more fun part about it is making it personal. Again, I've got to be in this meeting, too. So might as well make it fun. So I do connect with people that are like minded. Guitars, cars, some kinds of sports. So if I find an article, I've got a client out east that loves to collect cars. And I've found an article about a grand national, little while ago, knew that he had one, sent it to him, and that's generated, generated a discussion two months later, he sent me half a million dollars. So again, that wasn't the purpose. I try and mix that in because I've got to be there too. So I might as well have fun with it. And it just generally leads into business. Sometimes there's those days where you feel like it's just funneling in from nowhere. But then you look back and reflect on the fact that you know what, I've been working with this person for three years, we've talked about a few things, and I'm not high pressure, I'm not any pressure salesman, it just sort of comes in naturally. So you overlook the fact that you've worked three years really hard to have things fall into place. But it takes time to do that. And, again, I just try and have fun, and want people to be happy when I call so it makes my day go better. If I'm having fun in a meeting. I do use a newsletter, the effectiveness of this, effectiveness of that is unknown to me, I did a survey a couple years ago, and I sent out roughly 250 newsletters, and seven people responded. And then I went to the point where I would put them contests in them, the same seven people would respond all the time. So I do a newsletter regularly. It's almost like, because I think I have to do it. I don't get a lot of response from it. But again, it is a touch point so that they know that I'm thinking about them. It's never heavy information. I'll draw some kind of analogy in there. Michelle always puts a recipe in there. I've got a community section that is a reach out section, but it's not a sales focus newsletter. It's just, I'm thinking about you. If you have any questions, give me a call type thing.

Sandra Kennedy  23:05  
I'm above and beyond social media. I mean, even just saying that when Damon just for example, or to share with you all that is done a big, big, big change in my business, that LinkedIn engagement. In fact, I found out about... I don't know, maybe six months ago, even how much when I had a client and they're already a client, but it still means they're watching me. And they asked me if I'm okay, because I didn't post on LinkedIn last week, the week before and it was and I was shocked, like, Oh, if they're watching, expecting like what and then I get even on my so there it's a two fold even on my own post that I share regularly of what I'm doing, or share my clients to help promote them as well. People know where they are, and I'll get you know, private messages of Oh, I loved that. Tell me a bit more about that or oh maybe I'll switch it up for my next show. I love that you know that type of thing. As well as the engagement posts on brands and people like it, they thank you and then you I mean you're not just going to go slamming over in there you wait another few weeks and you do the same and eventually you know like anything like the network you were talking about. Networking, Damon it takes it takes some time. I find after COVID it's a little bit more tough. So I have to use an email tactic. I also use and  sending a sending a thank you note. Thanks for doing business enjoyed it can't wait until the next time you know and when, still people like to get that kind of hand written something across their desk because it doesn't happen often. Now with COVID, you know it's a bit different. People aren't in the office and you don't know people's home addresses. But even sending a Starbucks card over email saying thanks have a coffee on me. I appreciate you. People are just so... I used UberEATS and a few different things depending on, you know, clients and people who supported me. So there's a few other neat ideas that seem to work well.

Tim Keeler  25:08  
Yeah, I agree. I still send out birthday cards and Christmas cards and stuff. And I always make sure that I handwrite them. And it's fun to get something in the mail these days, you just don't anymore. And Sandra, something else you said, reminded me that if you ask for help, like referrals. Ask for I personally, I love connecting people through the network. It gives me a sense of fulfillment to Okay, I'm going to connect this person that I respect and this person that I respect, and hopefully they make something out of it. I think other people feel the same way too. So rather than just saying, Do you know anybody else who can do my services, can you help me out building my business, I'm looking for people just like you, because I enjoy being with you. If you know anybody that you can connect me with, that'd be great. And people just love to help out. Or at least the people that I like to hang out with, like to help out. So.

Peter Reynolds  26:01  
I think I think the idea of sort of business empathy, you know, and customer empathy getting to know, your customer there. Beyond that, there's two aspects to it. One is getting to know the customer beyond the business as Tim, you were saying when it comes to you know, if they're into guitars or cars, but also getting to know the business itself. And Sandra, you talked about how, you know, in your industry, you could be dealing with the medical professional at one day, you know, the entertainment industry on the other day, but the more you can get to know them, you know, that they're going to feel that you when you make a suggestion, you actually do know you actually are doing something to try to help their business rather than just help yourself. Would you agree with that?

Tim Keeler  26:46  
People like to do business with people that they like, and it's hard to leave somebody that you like.

Sandra Kennedy  26:50  
I agree 100%, I think the relationship is more than and I agree, Peter getting to know the business. I mean, in my case, because I do deal with so many different ones. It's more about getting, I mean, I can know the business to a level, but it's more about getting to know the people in the business that I'm working with, you know, and what and what their personalities are like and how you mesh. We all know, I mean, if you if especially when you're newly getting to know someone, you kind of know right away, if you're hitting it off, and this is going down a good path or, you know, if maybe there's some differences. And, you know, it would be a whole different podcast that Peter and Damon for you to think of, but not every business is the right fit. And it's hard for some people to it's hard to, to know that and learn that but not not every business is always the perfect fit. So I think getting to know the person, as well as that that brand is huge, hugely important. 

Tim Keeler  27:47  
I agree.

Peter Reynolds  27:48  
100%. Now we lost Damon there. So we can pause for just a second and see if he just let's bring him back in. I mean, I don't know what Sandra said to insult you, Damon, but the

Damon Adachi  28:00  
I just had enough of her, I've had enough.

Peter Reynolds  28:04  
I wanted to talk a little bit about asking for feedback, as a way of engaging with clients, you know, asking them how you're doing how you can do better. I see the advantages of it, of course, you know that you're letting the client know that you're thinking about them and how you can improve service. But I always feel like if things are going well, you're sort of waking the bear, you know that... Do I really want them to then go oh, well, what could he do better? You know, and I just wanted to get your take on that in terms of asking for feedback from the clients.

Tim Keeler  28:40  
Tim, I have done a feedback survey in the past. And luckily it came back positive. I enjoy doing those, which is sort of where the idea came from. But as you mentioned, I was really nervous about it, because I didn't want anything negative to come back. If there was and it's constructive. Absolutely, work on it. But I really felt like I was putting my neck in a guillotine by openly soliciting any kind of feedback from the clients. Now luckily, the same seven people answered it. So it was all good. 

Peter Reynolds  29:16  
Sandra,

Unknown Speaker  29:17  
I think with my industry I mean I have to do that I I have people going out on a show floor. I have set-ups happening I have graphics being printed. I have so many pieces of a puzzle going on at once that I do post show meetings asking for exactly that. You know, after a show, we meet up and we talk about any feedback given now for the most part honestly it's positive and even if something small went wrong, it's all how you deal with that right? I think we need to stop, we don't need to be a society of perfectionist. Every business is going to have its issues. I mean, the perfect example, I don't know, am I allowed to use big name brands?  I won't do that. A perfect example is a large corporate fast food chain, you know, makes a mistake, we curse and we get all mad and we drive away or we're home and we're mad. But we're going there next week, like we're going back, you know, and a small business or an individual salesperson makes a mistake, and everything, everyone thinks it's just oh boy, and we're gonna, that's it, we're switching and we're gonna move to an A, no, it's how you deal with it, I think it's better Peter to honestly get the feedback. And even if there's some not so good, learn from it. And maybe you know, your business can grow from it. And I think if you come from that side, and that way of thinking, brands who work with, love that they like a company who admits to stop needing improvement, and then show the improvement. So that's might be my unpopular take. But that's my  take on it.

Tim Keeler  30:47  
An example yesterday that might fit into that got a client that for the last four years, four years, and I know this because I went back in the notes, I've been trying to get a hold of them to change portfolio around, blah, blah, blah, there's a bunch of stuff that goes on with this, but four years of every three months being completely unanswered. And Michelle took a call yesterday that, I just want to send me a check when I take my money out. It's not being managed properly. So I again, I took a little bit of offense to that initially, because I have been trying my hardest, I can't go and put the pen in their hand and then press the buttons. So I immediately called her. And after a quick discussion, she was not in a good headspace, I could tell because I know her fairly well. But she was really, really stressed about the whole situation. So I got what I needed to get the account out of purgatory, let's say, and knowing that she wasn't in the right headspace to make a good decision. I said, Okay, look, let's get together Wednesday, we'll do the zoom. She's a nurse. So I didn't really want to get together with her personally with the COVID. So I set up a Zoom meeting with her, got the information back this morning. So I know she's on board. And I think that that was a better way to handle it. Because I could have gotten the job done right away with what I needed, put it back on side. But I could see she wasn't ready for that information yet. So we set a time, a couple of days in the future, we're going to have a zoom conversation, I can see or I can look in the eyes, there will be an element of personal connection there to make sure that everything is running well in life. But that was taking something that client called said send me a check or one all my money. And again, I'm not looking at it this way. But in initial conversation, I learned that she had accounts at two other firms. Pretty sure that's gonna come over into the one portfolio tomorrow.

Damon Adachi  32:48  
Fantastic. Well, guys, I'm gonna put a pretty pink ribbon on all of this and tie it all together with a huge revelation. I started out by saying I hate sales. And realizing from this discussion, I actually love sales, because it's things like networking is dealing with people, it's collaborating and looking at things from less of a... I win, you lose perspective and more of a collaborative, and how can we do things together that get better? So, you know, that changes my outlook entirely on my sales function in my company. And I realized that I really love people. So that's the biggest part of sales and I am I'm really positive about the whole experience from sales and looking forward now at least.

Peter Reynolds  33:28  
Maybe yes, I learned a lot myself. I think we're all you know, when we were starting our businesses so you know, you have if you can't sell yourself, if you're if you're not you, who the heck else is going to? And I think we big revelation as Damon said it's not just about cold calls, that there's lots of other techniques out there that we can use to prospect for clients and to build those strong relationships. Any final thoughts or words of advice to the starting entrepreneur, you know, if they're feeling, you know, a little overwhelmed, by the whole sales, what's a good place to start? Sandra?

Unknown Speaker  34:07  
I would say reach out to people you know, who've been doing it for a while. Salespeople usually love to share what they do. Because you know, we've been doing it a while an they love to share. So reach out back to networking. Find a local networking group, in your area, in your industry, depending you know what your specifics are, find somewhere to get out there face to face, be confident, you know, and talk to everyone and anyone you know, just build relationships.

Tim Keeler  34:39  
I can't really add much to that. Again, it gets to a point where if you're doing things that you enjoy with people that you enjoy, networking. It's very different than the cold call days where you had to sell something to eat next week. When you get to a point where you're you're just doing things that you really enjoy with people that you enjoy. It's a lifestyle not a job.

Sandra Kennedy  35:04  
Oh, and Peter, add to that too, start your CRM CRM off from the get go, then it won't seem so daunting from from customer prospect number one, get it in that CRM.

Tim Keeler  35:16  
100%.

Peter Reynolds  35:17  
That is great advice. Tim and Sandra, thank you so much for joining us today and and sharing your insights.

Sandra Kennedy  35:25  
Thank you very much for having us. 

Tim Keeler  35:28  
Yep.

Peter Reynolds  35:29  
We've been speaking with Tim Keeler, who is a certified financial planner and guitar enthusiast. And Sandra Kennedy, who's a senior account executive with Skyline and of course, we have the Crown Prince of creativity Damon Adachi, who is a marketing consultant with Sevenfold Marketing. I'm Peter Reynolds, and you've been listening to Pros and Conversations. See you next time.